A Conversation Between James Madison and George W. Bush
By Paul Simmons, Clinical Professor, School of Medicine, University of Louisville
Editor`s Note: This "debate" was originally carried by NPR on March 20, 2001. Dr. Simmons is also Adjunct Professor in the Department of Philosophy and for many years was Professor of Christian Ethics at Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville.
Introduction: In a scene reminiscent of Marley`s after-life conversation with Scrooge, an apparition of James Madison appeared to George W. Bush shortly after Bush established the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. The Presidential directive to staff was "to coordinate a national effort to expand opportunities for faith-based and other community organizations." If anything would bring Madison back from the dead it would be such an announcement. Madison was an ardent defender of separation and dealt with proposals during his administration that have great similarity to what are now called "faith-based initiatives." Bush seems eager to set aside traditional barriers that have protected religion from government, and prevented government from taxing the citizenry to support religion. In their conversation, President Bush was the first to speak:
GWB: "My goodness! It`s James Madison? What are you doing here? And why did you wear that God-awful powdered wig? Don`t you know you are in Texas country? Where are your jeans and cowboy boots? Don`t you know wigs just don`t fly?"
JM: "Speaking of what doesn`t fly, have you considered what harms you are doing with these faith-based initiatives you are trying to sell?"
GWB: "Sell is hardly the right word, Jim. Look at this checkbook! I am buying, not selling. There are votes at stake and we need new coalitions to get things done in this country."
JM: "A point well taken, George, votes are more expensive these days and coalitions never came easy. Recall that I had to make friends with some back-country folks like Baptists and Methodists in Virginia to get religion disestablished and the First Amendment through the Continental Congress."
GWB: "Well, you have not seen anything, Jim. What you did in Virginia needs to be undone. You built a wall to separate church and state, we want to build a bridge to unite them. That disestablishment stuff was just bad religion. You Deists never got the message that this is a godly nation and the government needs to be friendly, not indifferent, to clergy types and their social programs."
JM: "Speaking of friendly, you have really cozied up to this radical bunch on the hard right. It is disturbing that you could be on such `buddy-buddy` terms with people who do not support everyone`s First Amendment rights. They seem only to want rights for those who think as they do."
GWB: "You must be kidding, Madison. The religious right loves the First Amendment. They know the Puritans and the Pilgrims and the Baptists all came over here to secure freedom of religion. They were tired of unfriendly governments that gave them the dickens and taxed them like everything. They knew how important it was to control government policy and turn it into a partnership for benevolence. Religion is the best thing we have going for us."
JM: "Easy there, George, this sounds like an identity problem. Are you the President or the Pope? Are we talking politics or religion? Is your task to defend the Constitution and strengthen the social contract or to promote religion and make government largesse available to churches?"
GWB: "Jim, government has to be all things to all people, especially religious people who are doing so much good for the homeless and the addicts and the illiterate. We don`t need government messing up people`s lives; we just ought to fund the faith groups and let them get on with the business of converting the lost and ne`er do wells so they will be productive citizens."
JM: "I see, so you want to turn all welfare efforts over to religious groups with social programs. Have I got it right?"
GWB: "Right, Jim. Don`t you see the point?"
JM: "I`m afraid I do, George, but I would like to be wrong."
GWB: "Well its like this, Jim. When Government spends money, it messes people up. They become dependent on government programs. But Government doesn`t change the heart. With a little federal money, faith groups can change this nation."
JM: "My soul and body, George, have you never read the First Amendment and why it was so important? Have you read no books on history? Have you not sworn to uphold the Constitution?"
GWB: "Well, I sure have! I read books by Marvin Olasky, and he says just what I think. You can`t take God out of government and that we need to be compassionate conservatives. And I was converted on the spot."
JM: "I never heard of Olasky up here, George. But besides his book, have you read anything that would give you historical perspectives on the relation of church and state and the struggle for religious liberty in this country? Don`t you know about the Inquisition, or the Act of Conformity, or the Hundred Years War or the Thirty Years War? Have you ever read about Roger Williams or the Quakers and their struggles for freedom in America? What about my `Memorial and Remonstrance` or the `Federalist Papers`?"
GWB: "Look, Jim, who has time to read all that stuff? I`ve been too busy getting elected and beating these anti-religious, immoral Democrats. I`ve also made some big money, which is something you never did. Wealthy people should run this country. They know how to get things done. I prefer them to that intellectual crowd you ran around with. What did they ever do for America?"
JM: "George, you took an oath to uphold the Constitution. You can`t uphold it if you don`t understand it. You must know the reasons for the liberties the First Amendment is designed to protect. Religion is not always friendly to freedom, especially when it means opposition to the dogmas of the church or the ability to control people."
GWB: "Religions controlling people? You must be kidding, Jim. Religion sets people free. Americans hate the wall you and Jefferson built between church and state. I am here to tear it down. It`s Deists like you and secular humanists that keep people from being good. I made a promise to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Marvin Olasky that I would do all in my power to make this country holy again. And the faith-based initiatives are just the beginning. Just think what I`ll be able to do by the second term."
JM: "Yes, I noticed your meeting with the National Council of Catholic Bishops on your anti-abortion agenda. You were recorded saying that faith-based initiatives money would help their efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade."
GWB: "That`s right, Jim, I did. We can`t allow women to go around terminating pregnancies just because they have a problem pregnancy. Killing innocent babies has got to stop."
JM: "But George, my impression is that you like killing. Texas leads all other states in executions. Its numbers add up to almost as many as the next five states combined." As Governor, you did nothing to stop or slow down using the death penalty."
GWB: "True. We Texans give the kind of compassion we get. We`ll be friendly to the friendly, but if you step out of line, we know how to handle that. Lethal injections and the electric chair were meant to be used. We intend to protect the public interest. Babies are innocent, but these dudes are guilty as sin."
JM: "So that`s the difference. Apparently women are sinners, too, and that is why their rights are less important than those of a fetus? And no matter what the findings about race-biased death penalty decisions and the facts about over-zealous prosecutors and witnesses with conflicts of interest, you are still enthusiastic about the death penalty?"
GWB: "Yes, Jim, that goes with being a Texan like me. I believe the guilty should get it in the neck."
JM: "W., let me see if I have this right. You want to bring every conception to term but once they are born, all bets are off!"
GWB: "No, that`s why we need more faith-based initiatives. Religion will bring `em in and keep `em in. We need to pour more money into social programs headed up by good people of faith so our entire country becomes a nation of believers and people able to pay their taxes and stay out of trouble."
JM: "George, don`t you know that you are turning faith groups into government agencies? It disturbs me greatly that you want to fund religious programs that have a thin veneer of social service. You seem not to be bothered by the practice of saying prayers and delivering sermons by people funded by government. My own conviction is that faith is a matter of voluntarism and persuasion. An atheist coerced is still of the same opinion."
GWB: "But, Jim, we are not funding religious worship or evangelism. We are only funding the social service. But even if they get mixed up, those in the programs need a good strong sermon. After all, you had some good things to say about freedom of expression and speech for the religious. They need more money to reach more people."
JM: "Yes, I strongly support the freedoms of religious groups to be religious. But I heard the same arguments you are making from the Episcopalians and the Baptists, George. They wanted money for charitable work. I rejected all their appeals. Government coercion is out of place in religion. Faith operates by friendly persuasion, but government uses the cudgel. Government that is voluntary is a contradiction in terms and religion that is coercive has lost its essence."
GWB: "Jim, there`s nothing wrong with loving service, no matter who does it. Government ought to use effective programs wherever it finds them and not worry about entanglement with religion and all those other little nit-picky things liberals keep talking about."
JM: "I think I`m getting the picture, George. It`s okay with you if Baptists insult the Jews, Muslims, and atheists as long as they are expressing their own faith. And its okay for religious groups to compete for federal funds as long as the funds hold out?"
GWB: "That`s right. Why should religious groups be denied government funds? We live in a free country where everyone should have equal access to tax revenues. After all, it is their money."
JM: "Competition among religious groups for federal money sounds horrific, George! There are few things worse than religious groups fighting over the same turf. The more religious groups get, the more they want. And they want no regulations on what they can do or say. In other words, they keep on accumulating but never diminish the vast sums of property and wealth they accumulate."
GWB: "You just don`t get it, Jim. You lived so long ago you just can`t understand the modern situation. We have forever banished the problem of religious persecution. Each group can speak its own mind. Jews can be Jews, Muslims Muslims, and Baptists Baptists, bless their hearts."
JM: "I noticed those evangelical prayers at your inauguration, George. Did it not occur to you that a lot of Americans belong to minority religions, but when they came to your Inauguration they were forced to listen to sectarian prayers?"
GWB: "Why should that bother me? Evangelicals are my people and they have a friend in the White House. When the Muslims elect a president (over my dead body!) they can have prayers by the Imam. And if an atheist is ever elected (God forbid!), he can have an atheist prayer (whatever that is). It`s a free country, Jim."
JM: "And a country concerned about civility, right George? We won a great victory when we separated institutional religion from government intrusion or entanglement, in my judgment. The reason we have had both vitality in religion and a strong central government is that we set religions free to pursue their own mission without government control or support. When we start setting religious groups against one another, we will be in for some rough times. Have you considered the religious wars in India, Indonesia, and Africa?"
GWB: "Jim, those wars are caused by a bunch of foreign fanatics. They are haters not lovers. That`s why they can`t get along."
JM: "Do you really think that competition for advantage has nothing to do with religious wars, George? Doesn`t each group want the government to give it favorite treatment or special status?"
GWB: "But that will never happen here, Jim. We have solved all those problems because we have enough money to go around."
JM: "So money is the solution to all social ills? Have you never heard of the War on Poverty? And do you intend to fund the Wiccans and the Satanists, the Nation of Islam and the Mormons, the Scientologists and the Unification Church? I know your initiatives make Sun Myung Moon happy. Are all religions going to be treated equally?"
GWB: "Well now, just a minute, Jim, I never said that. After all, there have to be some limits and some tests if they are to get government money. They`ve got to be lovers and not haters, really good people who embrace family values and traditional notions of government. I think I have been pretty clear about that."
JM: "Yes. But from what I hear, your friends like Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson have developed some severe reservations about your faith-based initiatives. And there are over 800 religious groups that have signed petitions in opposition. Apparently there are more than a few kinks to be worked out."
GWB: "That`s true. There are some things I had not thought about. I never expected Pat and Jerry to back off and be so critical. We have some work to do to smooth out the wrinkles."
JM: "George, does that mean you are backing down and re-evaluating this whole scheme as perhaps a little misguided and premature?"
GWB: "Not on your life! I know what`s good for this country. And once I make up my mind, I will not change it. The Devil is in the details, I`m sorry DiIulio has bailed out. But we will get God`s man in that office to work it out."
JM: "You say a "man" in the office? Why not a woman? Aren`t women known to be compassionate about children and those in need."
GWB: "The problem is simple, Jim. Women are too compassionate. The first priority is to get a tough-minded conservative like me in there who can think more objectively than women. Second, women might be soft on abortion and I want to be sure that we overturn Roe v. Wade and get the women back into the house where they belong. Don`t you worry, Jim, we are here to get the job done."
JM: "To be candid, George, I fear the worst. I really hate to go back and tell Jefferson about our conversation."
